Why all the hatred towards Apple?

[nikopol]

Apple computers have always been set in an elitist price range, making their "Computers for the Rest of Us" slogan akin to doublethink. Also, they have had a sort of anti-hacker mentality with their idea that computers should be an appliance that the user simply plugs in and pushes an ON switch.

First off, welcome to the lugradio forums - hopefully you'll enjoy your stay here.

Back to the point you make, I'm not sure that making them "simply work" is an anti-hacker statement. Can't ease of use be hacker agnostic? I mean I like Linux but I don't think it will lose its' hacker ethic if we make it recognise Card Readers off the bat or if we make X configuration less complex and more invisible. I must confess to not being a hacker - I've said this before but I'll say it again: I use linux because of the philosophy behind it rather than my technological acumen. When I started on Linux, I didn't know how to program, spent days figuring out how to mount my windows partition, hours to find out that pressing q would allow me to escape from a man command and I still haven't been too successful at compiling my own kernel... so generally I'm not unhappy with things getting easier for your average user (after all, I want to be able to tell people to just install Linux and get rid of windows - a point that is getting closer by the day...)

[mrben]

How many of you Apple-haters have even used OS X...?

It's not a question of OS X, it's a question of Apple..... And when it _is_ a question of OS X, it's not about quality, but rather about license/philosophy.

I don't need to try OS X, because I know without trying that it is a closed source, proprietary operating system.

[jono]

How many of you Apple-haters have even used OS X...?

I would not consider myself an Apple hater, but I have and do use Mac OS X sometimes. I have a G5 box and a Powerbook.

[fuzzix]

I must say, a lot of the complaints seem to be rooted in the past...

But what if I said: "Linux? That's that really hard to set up, ugly-looking operating system that you need to enter loads of really hard commands at a terminal just to use" ?

You'd all say to me "but that's all changed now! Linux isn't ugly, and it's really easy to set up!"

How many of you Apple-haters have even used OS X...?

That's the nature of existence - you can't discuss the present without using the past as a frame of reference. Try it... doesn't work.

If you said "Linux? That's that really hard to set up, ugly-looking operating system that you need to enter loads of really hard commands at a terminal just to use" I'd tell ya "Yup, but at least it's honest! The GUI is a lie..." and then get all Neal Stephenson on you.

I've used OSX. It didn't suddenly melt my heart and make me think "Wow, Apple may be a multinational corporation with marketing bullshit that rots you to your very core but boy is this a nice interface!" I did think "Where's the fucking xterm?! Is this X?" *hits key combo* "Oh... damn"

And to all of you ragging on the one button mouse - it is actually a breeze to make your way around with a thumbless stump but it does make an actual hand feel redundant. Think of it as a default setting - MacOS users I know personally swap that thing for 10 button job on day one. It's like the iPod headphones - so shite that they are a trolling point for bitter fuckers like me! You'd think if you're paying that much over the odds for a hard disk, LCD and a couple DSPs they could at least include a decent pair of damn headphones! People I know with iPods ditched them phones on the way back from the Apple Store.

[t1mmyb]

How many of you Apple-haters have even used OS X...?

I would not consider myself an Apple hater, but I have and do use Mac OS X sometimes. I have a G5 box and a Powerbook.

Hehe Jono - you know it wasn't you I was talking about.

Clue: he's BALD

[No']

my own little .02 to this debate.

I don't feel like I'm a Apple hater too, but I don't think I'll ever use one.

My sisters uses Macintosh at work and at home, because her job is print-related, and everything is Mac in this domain.
But...
Yesterday (sunday), I had a coffee at her home, and she wanted to show me pictures, blah blah. And her G4 is an amazing debunk of the legendary rock-solid Mac stability. At least two crashes in less than half an hour, and not by asking too much (basically copy-paste files from CD to the hard-disk drive).
She told me this kind of crash was usual. Don't know what to think. I always though Mac was as stable as... er... Debian ?

More on this. What I *really* dislike a *lot* is the affective link that some Mac users put on their "pet computer". I remember a documentary on french TV where I could see a man putting a knee on the floor watching the brand-new-Apple wide screen. Bigotry / Zealotry is really boring.
It always feel like everything that Steve Jobs shows is the *best*, no argument. And if you do that, Mac-lovers feel offended!

So:
- I don't hate Mac. I hate the "M-word" Steve Jobs does each time he has some "brilliant idea" (iPod shuffle... come on...)
- I don't hate Mac users, as long as they are as honest as my sister.
- My two nieces are the most beautiful children ever (what do you say? Off-topic?)

[Damocles]

Can I tip the mean slightly by saying that I have never had a system crash on my current iBook or mac desktop? Mind you I never have had one on Linux (modulo when I do silliness with the kernel).

[Ade]

How many of you Apple-haters have even used OS X...?

It's not a question of OS X, it's a question of Apple..... And when it _is_ a question of OS X, it's not about quality, but rather about license/philosophy.

I don't need to try OS X, because I know without trying that it is a closed source, proprietary operating system.

OK, so I guess I should make my opinions known then - basically Mr Ben sums it up for me, in the above quote.

BTW, I have used OS-X for the record, and I was very, very unimpressed. But thats just me, other people like it, so there you go.

However, and this is the thing I really don't understand, why do people seem to link Linux and Apple? They are at two different ends of the spectrum. One is completely Free and Open Source and the other is proprietary and closed source (apart from its kernel) plus you are locked into their hardware. Its almost as though Apple users are doing a "my enemies enemy is my friend" thing, if you see what I mean.

Now I don't think that there is anything wrong with proprietary operating systems per se and I completely stand up for anyone who wants to use one - go for it! I actually think XP is a good operating system (yes you did read that correctly, I think XP is a good OS), but XP and OS-X are the same, THEY ARE THE SAME ! Anyone who thinks this isn't the case is very much mistaken.

It all goes back to what Mr Benn was saying about philosophy. If you are a Linux user, then I assume that is because you value the Open Source philosophy, because you believe that you should have a right to the source code, that you value this community approach over corporate lock in.

I would defend (nearly to, but not quite to the death) anyones right to use a proprietary OS, as I would defend a persons right to choose an Open Source one but lets be clear which is which and not to try pretend that one is the other.

To summarise, Open Source is Open Source and proprietary is proprietary – neither is right or wrong. Let me say that again – neither is right or wrong. However, thinking/pretending that one is the other is wrong and its this that I tend to get a little wound up about at times.

Well all have the right to chose, but if you are choosing propriety, please understand that that is what it is and don't pretend, to yourself or anyone else, that this is not the case – Apple are no less evil than Microsoft, they are one in the same.

Peace and love, The Bald one

[t1mmyb]

However, and this is the thing I really don't understand, why do people seem to link Linux and Apple? They are at two different ends of the spectrum. One is completely Free and Open Source and the other is proprietary and closed source (apart from its kernel) plus you are locked into their hardware. Its almost as though Apple users are doing a "my enemies enemy is my friend" thing, if you see what I mean.

1. They're both types of Unix
2. They're both not Microsoft

Now I don't think that there is anything wrong with proprietary operating systems per se and I completely stand up for anyone who wants to use one - go for it! I actually think XP is a good operating system (yes you did read that correctly, I think XP is a good OS), but XP and OS-X are the same, THEY ARE THE SAME ! Anyone who thinks this isn't the case is very much mistaken.

In terms of philosophy they *might* be the same, but that's as far as it goes. In terms of the security model, the usability, the attention to detail, they are very different.

It all goes back to what Mr Benn was saying about philosophy. If you are a Linux user, then I assume that is because you value the Open Source philosophy, because you believe that you should have a right to the source code, that you value this community approach over corporate lock in.

(Family Fortunes): uh-uhhhh.

1. That's a big assumption to make. Some, like Marcel the Linux Magazine chef, use Linux because of its qualities, not because of the philosophy. I use it because at work I can choose between Linux and Windows, and I don't like Windows
2. You have to sell Linux on its merits, if you want more people to use it. Most people out there couldn't give a crap about some intellectual debate re. software licensing and freedom. They might, however, want a machine that doesn't get infected with nasties or crash (very often).

I would defend (nearly to, but not quite to the death) anyones right to use a proprietary OS, as I would defend a persons right to choose an Open Source one but lets be clear which is which and not to try pretend that one is the other.

To summarise, Open Source is Open Source and proprietary is proprietary – neither is right or wrong. Let me say that again – neither is right or wrong. However, thinking/pretending that one is the other is wrong and its this that I tend to get a little wound up about at times.

Well all have the right to chose, but if you are choosing propriety, please understand that that is what it is and don't pretend, to yourself or anyone else, that this is not the case – Apple are no less evil than Microsoft, they are one in the same.

Peace and love, The Bald one

I'm not pretending anything! I didn't for one minute suggest that Mac OS X was anything other than a proprietary operating system. I just wondered why there was so much bile being directed at Apple (especially when the Mac Mini was released), a lot of it (to my mind) uninformed rubbish.

For me, I have a flavour of Unix at work and a flavour of Unix at home. No more, no less. The fact that at home I have a flavour of Unix that also lets me just get on with importing photos from my digital camera etc is a bonus. Like Jono with his music production, I just want to get on and do stuff. OS X lets me do that, whereas my experience with Linux in the past has been of frustratingly-complex setting up with no guarantee of stuff working. I used to try to get non-techy friends to try Linux. Now I just don't bother. I tell them to get a Mac.

As to there being no shades of evilness between Apple and MS: how many open source projects have Apple contributed to (KHTML, anyone). How many have Microsoft? Erm...

[mrben]

1. They're both types of Unix
2. They're both not Microsoft

So are Linux and SCO....... or Linux and Solaris....... etc, etc.

2. You have to sell Linux on its merits, if you want more people to use it. Most people out there couldn't give a crap about some intellectual debate re. software licensing and freedom. They might, however, want a machine that doesn't get infected with nasties or crash (very often).

This depends very much on your intended user-base. Corporate users _do_ want a stable, secure machine, but they also want to avoid vendor lock-in. Only an Open Source OS can give them this. OS X certainly can't.

Like Jono with his music production, I just want to get on and do stuff. OS X lets me do that, whereas my experience with Linux in the past has been of frustratingly-complex setting up with no guarantee of stuff working. I used to try to get non-techy friends to try Linux. Now I just don't bother. I tell them to get a Mac.

That's why we like Ubuntu

I don't tell my friends to get Macs, because I simply don't think they're worth the money, and because you will continue to be stuck in the hardware/software upgrade cycle that you get with Wintel machines. I would consider a Mac Mini if Apple would sell them without an OS..... but I'm still not convinced as to the value-for-money.

As to there being no shades of evilness between Apple and MS: how many open source projects have Apple contributed to (KHTML, anyone). How many have Microsoft? Erm...

I think that this is reason that there has been much aimed at Apple (and, for that matter, Sun) - they have flirted with being friendly towards Open Source, but ultimately they have the following characteristics that should make any Open Source advocate uneasy:

1. Proprietary OS
2. Vendor lock-in
3. Hardware/software lock-in

[QuantumG]

4. Cheapness.

I get all my hardware for free.. no-one has yet to give me a free Mac, therefore I hate them. I suppose at some point someone will give me a free Mac and then I'll have to say they are "ok" for whatever I use it for. But chances are I'll get so freakin' sick of it I'll install Linux and then I'll be saying "A Mac makes a good Linux laptop" which is still hating.

[PunkWalrus]

I used to do tech support for Apple and Windows back in 1996/97. I found the following personal experiences:

Mac users are so used to things working, that when something goes wrong (like your company's dodgy software), they get more upset than Windows users did. Windows users (and this was during the Windows 3.1/95 crossover) were so used to thinks crashing, they became a little more "battle-hardened veterans," so to speak. For instance, when we had a beta product, this is what happened:

Mac: WTF??? Why do I keep getting "Error 11" randomly? You SUCK!
Win: I got that bug with the S3.dll and gdi.exe crashing the system. I think there's something screwy with how you're redrawing the screen with my video chipset. This doesn't happen on my Matrox card.
Mac: How come I have to turn on virtual memory? I have 16mb RAM, you twits!! (this was 1996)
Win: Crap, another page fault. I think your stupid program is doing something with memory swapping.

This doesn't mean Mac people were simple, it sadly meant that they ran into problems so infrequently, that they considered a system crash to be a really, really bad thing (which, it is, really). Sadly, Mac techs at the time were so anti-Windows, it was silly. Stupid techs hid behind this persona, like instead of trying to solve the problem, they sat on their Mac throne and went, "Shoulda got a Mac... dumbass." Now, I like Linux more than Windows, but I take this as a personal choice based on my needs. But Mac zealots were like some kind of scary cult (I find FreeBSD to be the same), and now I find that even more so. But if I could afford a Mac laptop? Absolutely. They are very cool. But Intel laptops are discared so much these days, I find it loads cheaper to load Linux on them.

For instance, I have a Dell Inspiron, 3.0ghz with 512mb RAM running Kubuntu as my main laptop. Has an NVidia chipset to boot. My wife's work were just dumping them for the newer, sexier dual core models. I got it for free. I spent 20 cents to burn a CD with Kubuntu. 20 cents versus $1300? I can't beat that.

To me, Mac hatred is like sports cars people hating SUVs and vice versa. A sports car is sexy, fast, and fun to drive. But it sucks at hauling a family around. And SUV is great for that, but does not handle well at high speeds, and tends to have next to no pickup on acceleration. Both get terrible gas mileage, but for different reasons. It's all based on what you need.

I just hate elitist snobs. That's easier, and they cross all boundaries. I hate smarmy Linux zealots who go around acting like they shit gold because they know their way around a command line. "I wouldn't know how to do that in Windows," they say, like that is a benefit to mankind. "But I can do it in Gentoo." Yeah? Too bad you're on a Windows box. Ha! That's karma for you..."