Ethics beyond software

[Allix]

Alot of us have our strong opinions in regard to software freedom, whats rarely spoken of is working ethics if thats the correct term.
Apple publically admited that there hardware is made in sweatshops, its proberly not a surprise that most hardware we posess is proberly made by workers in poor conditions for poor wages.

I could be wrong to presume that apples annoucement has not hurt there sales of the ipod, but the free software community as a whole does not seem to oppose this view. Of course there are some who do.

If we designed free hardware which in turn got sent to a chip plant to be made, would we as a community oppose our designs being made by workers on a very low wage and bad working conditions? Or would we ignore that and as long as designs and software is free, we are happy?

I would like to think we have morals beyond making just free software and hardware designs , after all we promote the benifits of free software to developing countries which would be hyprocritical if we did not care how the hardware was made and in what working conditions.

[verlaine]

An interesting point, with commodity hardware components it's near impossible to ascertain the providence of each component in your system and the conditions they were manufactured under. Whether it would be possible to produce a technologically competitive and financially viable product outside that system is another question.

Just as matter of interest does anyone class themselves as an ethical consumer of other products such as clothing and food? These are areas where ethical choices are available but how many of us go to the trouble and usually extra expense of seeking them out. I would like to but most of the time I don't.

[Allix]

An interesting point, with commodity hardware components it's near impossible to ascertain the providence of each component in your system and the conditions they were manufactured under. Whether it would be possible to produce a technologically competitive and financially viable product outside that system is another question.

Just as matter of interest does anyone class themselves as an ethical consumer of other products such as clothing and food? These are areas where ethical choices are available but how many of us go to the trouble and usually extra expense of seeking them out. I would like to but most of the time I don't.

i would think its possible to make a competitive product, maybe not price wise (a less you go for less profit) as the people making the chips would get a proper wage. If i am not mistaken some cars today are still made in this country and they seem to sell, plus the wages of the workers are reasonable (thats debatable??).

I am glad you brought up ethical consumer, i try to buy fair trading food products where i can, finding cloths that are made ethically is pretty hard.
As far as other items go, its difficult to find ethical replacements, i know this laptop i am typing this message on was no doubt made in china in appalling conditionals and bad wages.

[QuantumG]

I'm not a big fan of the "boycott and seek alternatives" response to unethical manufacturers. Sure, it works sometimes and for some people that's the limit of their power, but I think a better way to fight these people is to help revolutionize the world so that what they are doing is no longer profitable for them. In the case of sweatshops, the best solution is to help achieve social justice, not take away the jobs of sweatshop workers by boycotting the manufacturer.

This is why vegetarians piss me off so. Rather than work to revolutionize the world's food supply (which even I believe needs work), they just boycott meat and then sit around in their own smugness.

Boycotts are for followers.

[verlaine]

But surely you wouldn't keep consuming the products of these evils while you fight to banish them?

[Allix]

I'm not a big fan of the "boycott and seek alternatives" response to unethical manufacturers. Sure, it works sometimes and for some people that's the limit of their power, but I think a better way to fight these people is to help revolutionize the world so that what they are doing is no longer profitable for them. In the case of sweatshops, the best solution is to help achieve social justice, not take away the jobs of sweatshop workers by boycotting the manufacturer.

This is why vegetarians piss me off so. Rather than work to revolutionize the world's food supply (which even I believe needs work), they just boycott meat and then sit around in their own smugness.

Boycotts are for followers.

I see what you mean with boycotts , boycotting X would perhaps close the company but there spring back under another name or there be someone else who is evil.

Your spot on we should demand higher wages to the workers who make the chips, even if it costs us more to buy the products than make the workers redundant.

Vegetarianism is different issue, its about seeing animals in appalling conditions , all squashed together and then slaughtered makes one a vegetarian, and then the extreme case turning to veganism.
There are arguments that if we give up meat there will be more land available for crops that could easily feed the world over. Breeding cattle uses alot of land.

[Jetlag]

I don't think it's possibly to live a truely "ethical" life right now. At least, not without rejecting a huge amount about the way the modern world works, and my friends and family mean to much to me to, say, refuse to ever travel to go visit them.

I do some stuff, because my belief in Freedom, "being a good neighbour" and generally looking out for the rest of the world goes a lot further than software. I have energy saving lightbulbs, I try to reduce-reuse-recycle, and I eat organic when there isn't a stupidly huge price mark-up. In the new year, I intend to try growing at least some of my own food (probably starting with tomatoes), and I'll also be looking at getting a compost bin. I do stuff for charities (including going and singing carols round the children's ward of the local hospital earlier this evening). I wish I could do more without it being so much effort, but hopefully the little bit I do makes at least a little bit of difference.

[Allix]

But surely you wouldn't keep consuming the products of these evils while you fight to banish them?

Its a bit hypocritical using the devils tools to fight against the devil, but is there any choice? remember the u-bomber ? he went crazy, thats not a solution in itself.

We have to use what we can and use what we want when we can, ie use evil campanies hardware while using free open source software.
iirc rms used a commercial C compiler before gcc was born, we in the same vane use non-free hardware untill open hardware becomes available.

[Allix]

I don't think it's possibly to live a truely "ethical" life right now. At least, not without rejecting a huge amount about the way the modern world works, and my friends and family mean to much to me to, say, refuse to ever travel to go visit them.

I do some stuff, because my belief in Freedom, "being a good neighbour" and generally looking out for the rest of the world goes a lot further than software. I have energy saving lightbulbs, I try to reduce-reuse-recycle, and I eat organic when there isn't a stupidly huge price mark-up. In the new year, I intend to try growing at least some of my own food (probably starting with tomatoes), and I'll also be looking at getting a compost bin. I do stuff for charities (including going and singing carols round the children's ward of the local hospital earlier this evening). I wish I could do more without it being so much effort, but hopefully the little bit I do makes at least a little bit of difference.

Thats right, there is only so far a human can walk, ie it would take me possibly a day to get to university, where as transport 1hour or so.
Plus visiting the czech republic where my gf parents live, it would be hard to say i am not visiting because i disagree with the transport ....

Charity work is a great idea, makes me feel bad that i don't do any after what you said
Thats giving me a good idea, a hackerthon to raise money for charity, a project is decided , then money is donated to hackers which in turn goes to a charity.

I agree improving the world goes beyond free software.